M1891 Carcano Bayonet with Strange Sheath

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Phantom 778
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M1891 Carcano Bayonet with Strange Sheath

Post by Phantom 778 »

Okay guys, I need some serious help here. I recently aquired this 1942 Rocca M1891 Carcano Bayonet on eBay. Have you ever seen a sheath like this before? It looks like a Finnish M27 Mosin Nagant sheath and not an Italian steel sheath. For one, the sheath will not fit inside an original Italian Carcano green leather frog so the size is obviously different? Secondly, there is no flat head screw securing the hook to the sheath, a typical Italian trait. And finally, this sheath design does not make an appearance in any of my Carcano books or on the internet that I can find. Is this even an Italian sheath? Or was I sold a bayonet with another country's sheath on it? Oh course, the seller claimed all I need to do is google "Italian bayonets used by Germany," and all my questions will be answered. Needless to say, that lead dried up quick with no answers yet...
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72 usmc
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Re: M1891 Carcano Bayonet with Strange Sheath

Post by 72 usmc »

That is the markings for the manufacturer ROCCA. ROCCA made M91 bayonets in WWII for use with the M91/41 most I have observed are in a leather scabbard dated for production year 1941, 1942 and 1943 on the leather which was also were marked Rocca and a year. see Bayonets chapter in the cited reference. Like this one:
p36740_61264_1457012021.jpg
https://stewartsmilitaryantiques.com/it ... rchive.htm
Others, I have seen the metal scabbard like you show. It is Italian. WW I Terni marked bayonet;
Screen Shot 2021-04-09 at 7.38.58 PM.png
Please see pictures and more info. about this metal ribbed, WWI scabbard on page 209 in, The Model 1891 Carcano Rifle 2016 A Schiffer book. This is a must have book. Authors are G. Chegia, A. Simonelli and R. Riccio.
Screen Shot 2021-04-09 at 8.03.06 PM.png

I would consider this more of a German sheath on an Italian bayonet.
original.jpg
note your sheath has a later style hook not the WWI style with a screw, I believe it to be WW II not WWI. LOOK AT THE PICTURES.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.
Phantom 778
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Re: M1891 Carcano Bayonet with Strange Sheath

Post by Phantom 778 »

72 usmc wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:39 pm note your sheath has a later style hook not the WWI style with a screw, I believe it to be WW II not WWI. LOOK AT THE PICTURES.
I greatly appreciate your reply, however, the sheath on my bayonet appears to be Finnish. I have yet to find any reference material that shows my hook style sheath on a Carcano bayonet as being 'correct.' The picture you referenced at the bottom of your post depicts a smooth metal scabbard. My scabbard is ribbed.
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Re: M1891 Carcano Bayonet with Strange Sheath

Post by 72 usmc »

You are correct i just found this: :confusion-shrug: :handgestures-thumbupright:
http://www.holmback.se/bayonets/Notes-E ... -Main.html
M1927-29.jpg
M/27, M/29
OAL 412 BL 300 MRD 16,5
Production
M 27 Fiskars
M 29 Fiskars (the majority) and Hackman & Co Weapon
M/27
picture

In summer 1928 first series of M/27 bayonets were ordered from Fiskars.
The bayonet consisted of hilt, loose crossguard and interchangeable blade sitting in a dove tail in hilt.
Crossguard was kept on place between blade and hilt and the whole thing was kept together with 2 rivets penetrating grip plates. Rivet heads were domed to allow their easy removal for blade change.

This design was immediately found weak and it is not known how many M/27 bayonets actually were made.
The problem was solved by welding the crossguard to hilt by two weld spots behind crossguard, further on the dovetail design was also modified and one internal rivet was added. This modification was called M/1929 and more or less all bayonets existing today are of this type.
Scabbard was fluted and blued. In beginning lot of German G98 left-over frogs were used with these scabbards.
New frogs were made by several companies, in the beginning without securing strap and later with strap.
Early scabbards were of brown leather and since about 1935 green.

The bayonet had no oil hole on pommel but at later overhauls holes have been drilled in a few cases.
Also rivets have been sometimes replaced by tubular rivets.
Hilt is blued and blade bright.
Looks like a Carcano , but the attachment is different- no screw.
To old to fight and to old to run, a Jar head will just shoot and be done with you.
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